JRE MMA Show #183 with Rico Verhoeven

The Usyk Fight Controversy [0:53]

• Verhoeven expresses disbelief at the judging of his fight against Oleksandr Usyk, stating he won 10 rounds.
• He felt the stoppage was unjust and that the judges' scorecards did not reflect the fight's reality.

  "Like, what is going on there? And that is, for me, where the toughness is of the whole experience."

Judging Incompetence or Corruption [2:33]

• Verhoeven questions the competence or potential corruption of the judges, noting that professional commentators and boxers saw the fight differently.
• He suggests that incompetence might be worse than corruption, as it implies judges don't understand the sport.

  "It's almost worse if it's incompetence."

Alternative Scoring and More Judges [4:09]

• Verhoeven proposes alternative scoring systems and increasing the number of judges to five, like in Glory, to mitigate flawed decisions.
• He believes more judges would increase the odds of a correct outcome.

  "I think five's the right number. I think three is too few."

Transparency in Sports [5:01]

• He draws parallels to VAR in soccer, where technology and multiple reviewers can overturn incorrect calls.
• Verhoeven argues that combat sports should have a similar mechanism for reviewing and overturning mistakes.

  "But there should be people or a situation where it's like, hey, sorry, ref, but you made a mistake."

The Stoppage Appeal [6:27]

• Verhoeven reveals he appealed the stoppage, and the authorities agreed he was right, but the decision was never overturned.
• He questions how a decision could be overturned, considering the potential for a majority draw even if scorecards were reviewed.

  "And everything we appealed upon, we got, they said, like, you guys were right."

Usyk's Toughest Fight [8:20]

• Verhoeven points out that the fight was Usyk's most competitive heavyweight bout, yet a rematch isn't being discussed.
• He contrasts this with the proposed Deontay Wilder fight, suggesting Wilder is not the same fighter he once was.

  "Here's what you know is crazy. It was the most competitive fight of Usyk's career as a heavyweight champion."

The Rocky Story Rematch [9:40]

• Verhoeven desires a rematch with Usyk, not just for the sake of it, but because it represents unfinished business and a "Rocky story."
• He sees himself in the "winter" of his career and wants to focus on significant fights.

  "It's unfinished business. Yes. It's a Rocky store."

The Size Difference and Game Plan [13:15]

• Verhoeven highlights the significant size difference between himself and Usyk, a former cruiserweight.
• He emphasizes the effectiveness of his game plan, which involved using his size and pushing a relentless pace.

  "You're way bigger than him. I'm like, that's a giant factor."

Cardio Advantage [15:35]

• Commentators questioned how long Verhoeven could maintain his pace, but he knew his cardio was superior due to his dedication to training.
• He notes that few fighters his size can maintain such a high pace.

  "Well, they don't know about your car, though. Exactly."

The Unjust Stoppage Reversed [17:50]

• Verhoeven reiterates that the fight was stopped too quickly, even if Usyk had him rocked.
• He argues that in a world championship fight, especially when he was ahead, he deserved more of a chance.

  "You were that far ahead. You got to give someone a chance."

Incompetence or Corruption [19:04]

• Verhoeven leans towards corruption as the reason for the judging and stoppage, suggesting promoters want Usyk to win for future big fights.
• He believes the money and star power are with Usyk, not an outsider like himself.

  "Look, it's either incompetence or corruption. And I tend to think corruption."

The Genesis of the Usyk Fight Offer [23:00]

• Verhoeven recounts how Jason Statham played a role in him getting into boxing, showing his videos to promoters.
• He was initially offered a fight against Anthony Joshua.

  "Jason said, yo, bro, I'm on the treadmill. Let me call you back. Listen, I put your name out there. I showed your videos and they're going crazy."

The Anthony Joshua Detour [25:40]

• The fight with Joshua was delayed when Joshua considered fighting Jake Paul.
• A tragic car accident involving Joshua's friends further disrupted the timeline.

  "And then two weeks later, that tragic accident happens."

Pitching the Undisputed vs. Undisputed Idea [28:40]

• Verhoeven and his team pitched the idea of an undisputed kickboxing champion versus an undisputed boxing champion to Usyk's team.
• The idea was met with immediate enthusiasm.

  "So I pitched him the whole idea, undisputed versus undisputed. Silence."

Kickboxing's Lack of Popularity in America [34:25]

• Verhoeven laments the lack of love for kickboxing in America, despite its exciting stand-up nature which casual MMA fans enjoy.
• He contrasts this with the popularity of boxing and MMA.

  "The kickboxing does not get the love that it deserves in America."

The Power of Storytelling in Combat Sports [39:50]

• Verhoeven emphasizes the importance of storytelling in building hype and connecting fans with fighters, citing the UFC's "Embedded" and "Countdown" shows as examples.
• He believes this is crucial for kickboxing to gain traction.

  "The UFC does an awesome job with that. They have a whole series called Embedded."

Career Transition and Future Options [47:30]

• Verhoeven discusses his free agency after vacating his kickboxing belt and the numerous offers he's received, including from the UFC and for boxing matches.
• He is leaning towards boxing, finding it enjoyable and a natural progression.

  "So, yeah, so we were in talks, because I was a free agent. So we were like, okay, let's, yeah, dip our toes in different water."

The Pyramids Fight Experience [1:07:00]

• Verhoeven describes the surreal experience of fighting in front of the pyramids, a location that held personal significance due to his mother's photos from there.
• He recounts the impressive production, including a choreographed moment where he "cracked" the ground to illuminate the pyramids.

  "And then, afterwards, they sent me a video. Like, yeah, we're going to do it here. It's going to be outside."

The Mental Game and Coping Mechanisms [1:18:30]

• Verhoeven discusses using emotional pain, like his mother's passing, as fuel for his fighting career, but recognizes this is not a healthy coping mechanism for life.
• He is working on processing emotions rather than just pushing them away.

  "But I feel like, personally, in relationships and just in general, in just living, I think that's not the way to cope with it."

Finding Passion in Acting [1:23:30]

• Verhoeven has found a new passion in acting, which he believes helps him process emotions and provides a creative outlet.
• He has acted in several films, including "Den of Thieves 2" and "Road House."

  "So, and I always said, like, I just, oh, just kept pushing it away. I said, I don't want to feel it."

The Importance of Options for Fighters [1:35:00]

• Verhoeven stresses the importance of fighters having multiple options for who to fight for, citing the PFL-MVP merger as a positive development for competition.
• He believes more competition leads to better opportunities and compensation for fighters.

  "The more competition, the better, and definitely better for the fighters to have options."

Kickboxing's Epicenter: Holland [1:41:00]

• Verhoeven explains how Holland became the epicenter of world-class kickboxing, with fighters and trainers exchanging knowledge and pushing each other to higher levels.
• He highlights the small country's ability to produce numerous elite kickboxers.

  "And then like, exchange, like I said, because the country is so small, they exchange everything with each other."

The Calf Kick Debate [1:53:00]

• Verhoeven acknowledges the effectiveness of calf kicks but also the potential for career-ending injuries.
• He believes they should remain a legal weapon, similar to grappling techniques.

  "Listen, if you can knee bar a guy, you can heel hook a guy, you've got to be able to calf kick."

The Oblique Kick and Knee Injuries [1:56:00]

• Verhoeven expresses concern over oblique kicks and sidekicks to the knee, which can cause severe, long-term injuries and potentially end careers.
• He shares examples of fighters whose careers were impacted by such kicks.

  "That's the kick I don't like. When Jon Jones fought Tiago Santos... He blew out both his legs."

The Art of Boxing vs. The Intensity of Kickboxing [2:03:00]

• Verhoeven distinguishes between boxing as an "art" with 12 rounds to craft a "masterpiece" and kickboxing as more intense, brutal, and fast-paced.
• He appreciates the strategic depth and adjustments possible in boxing.

  "So I really feel like boxing is so much of an art and you have 12 rounds to paint your masterpiece."

The Rematch Imperative [2:09:00]

• Verhoeven strongly believes a rematch with Usyk is the "correct fight to have" due to the controversial ending and judging.
• He hopes this podcast can motivate the parties involved to make it happen.

  "When a fight is that close and ends that controversially. And then the judging is, the scoring is that bad. The right thing to do is to have a rematch."