Atheist vs Christian vs Spiritual Thinker: Is Not Believing In God Causing More Harm Than Good?!

A discussion explores the "purpose crisis" facing many, with a Christian, an atheist, and a spiritual thinker sharing their perspectives. Statistics reveal a significant portion of young people feel their lives lack purpose, linking this to poor mental health. While some turn to religion for answers, others advocate for practical, psychological, or philosophical approaches. The conversation delves into whether purpose is inherent or self-chosen, the role of suffering, and the challenge of finding meaning in a complex world, touching on various philosophical and spiritual frameworks.

• Nine in 10 young people in the UK believe their life lacks purpose.
• 34% of men in the UK said life had no meaning compared to 18% of women.
• A coaching program showed a 68% increase in sense of purpose over 20 weeks.
• Purpose correlates with a sense of control; increasing active challenges improves this.
• Finding meaning often involves self-direction, stretching competence, and a sense of relatedness.

The Purpose Crisis and Societal Trends [00:00]

• Nine in 10 young people in the UK feel their lives lack purpose.
• A significant number of people are returning to religion.
• Statistics from October 2021 survey: 34% of men in the UK felt life had no meaning, compared to 18% of women.
• 50% of those lacking purpose linked it to poor mental health.
• Belief in God among 18-24 year olds in the UK rose from 18% in 2021 to 37% in 2025 (Yuggov).
• Monthly church attendance in the UK rose from 4% to 15% in 2025.

This section highlights a widespread feeling of purposelessness, particularly among young people, and notes a concurrent rise in religiosity as a potential response to this crisis. The data suggests a strong link between a lack of purpose and poor mental health outcomes.

"Nine in 10 young people in the UK believe that their life is lacking purpose and a lot of people are turning back to religion. There is something going on."

Defining Purpose and Spiritual Practice [04:42]

• Purpose is linked to having direction, meaning, and a sense of control in life.
• These concepts (purpose, direction, meaning, control) cluster together in psychological analysis.
• Spiritual practices aim to evoke subjective experiences that can increase one's sense of purpose.
• Science can explain what to do but doesn't always create the subjective experiences needed for purpose.
• Traumatic experiences can shatter a person's sense of meaning, but experiences can also lead to a gain in purpose.

This segment clarifies the speaker's understanding of purpose as an internal state tied to direction and control, and frames spiritual practices as a means to cultivate the subjective experiences necessary for finding meaning.

"For me, finding meaning and purpose is like a very practical thing."

The Theistic Worldview and Human Purpose [07:30]

• A Christian perspective views the world through a theistic lens, believing in a personal God involved in creation and ongoing activity.
• God is seen as having made the world with a purpose and meaning for human flourishing, intended to be in friendship with Him.
• Even without belief in God, individuals can find some measure of satisfaction by touching on objective features aligned with God's intentions.
• However, ultimate fulfillment is found in friendship with God.

This section outlines a Christian worldview where human purpose is divinely ordained, emphasizing that while secular actions can yield some satisfaction, true and ultimate flourishing comes from a relationship with God.

"The reason I'm here is because I'm convinced that that's the case and I'm willing to give reasons why."

The Atheist Perspective: Mortality and Immortality Projects [09:51]

• Human existence is uniquely defined by consciousness, mortality, and the awareness of these conditions.
• The knowledge of death can render life's pursuits seemingly meaningless.
• Much human behavior, particularly societal and abstract actions, is motivated by a form of "immortality project" – engaging in activities that outlast the individual.
• Religious traditions often promise literal immortality for the soul as the ultimate immortality project.
• People also find meaning in children, jobs, or participating in systems they believe will outlast them, reflecting a desire for transcendence.

This part of the discussion frames human motivation through the lens of confronting mortality, suggesting that much of our striving for meaning is driven by a subconscious need to deny death or achieve a form of lasting significance.

"So, I'm not the first to suggest that the principal motivating factor behind meaning infused activities that humans do is an engagement in death denial or some kind of immortality project."

The Challenge of Objective vs. Subjective Meaning [18:08]

• The core debate is whether meaning and purpose are objective (inherent) or purely subjective (created).
• If an objective meaning exists, discovering it is paramount.
• Finding meaning is an individual, often lifelong, journey that cannot be solved with a simple formula.
• The search itself can be valuable, but dismissing potential answers is counterproductive.
• The inherent human condition involves a constant search for meaning, suggesting it's not a problem that can be definitively "solved" for humanity.

This segment sets up the central philosophical tension of the discussion: the existence of objective, discoverable meaning versus subjective, self-created meaning, and the nature of the quest for it.

"I think there's a lot of people in the world that think they have put it together and they've come to conclusions about ultimate meaning and purpose and they don't come to my own conclusions."

The Role of Death in Meaning-Making [20:13]

• The inevitability of death is a significant factor motivating the human search for purpose.
• Activities that extend beyond one's death, like creating a legacy or having children, are seen as ways to transcend mortality.
• A thought experiment suggests that if all life on Earth were to end shortly after one's death, it would diminish the motivation for meaning-laden activities, highlighting the connection between perpetuation and purpose.
• The choice to engage in meaningful activities even when facing ultimate futility (like writing a book before the world ends) can indicate a stronger sense of purpose.

This discussion explores the existential dread of death and how it drives the human pursuit of meaning, suggesting that the desire for something to outlast us is a fundamental aspect of finding purpose.

"The typically meaning laden activities of life they would certainly be demotivated to do. And it's an interesting thought experiment to give us some insight as to the fact that well maybe this means that at least in part the motivation for these actions in the first place is that they will extend beyond our death."

Quantifying Purpose and Individual Agency [23:57]

• Purpose can be viewed as a quantifiable state, not binary, with individuals scoring on a scale of purpose.
• A key aspect of purpose is self-direction; making choices, rather than merely reacting to life, is crucial.
• The "rightness" of a choice is less important than the act of choosing itself for developing a sense of purpose.
• Stretching one's competence and growing through challenges is vital for maintaining a sense of direction.
• Cultivating these elements – autonomy, competence, and relatedness – can measurably improve one's subjective experience of purpose.

This segment shifts to a more psychological and practical approach, suggesting that purpose is measurable and can be cultivated through conscious effort, focusing on internal agency and development rather than solely external validation.

"Purpose is not binary. It's quantifiable. It's like a scale."

The Limits of Naturalistic Explanations for Consciousness and Meaning [50:40]

• The "problem of consciousness" is a significant challenge for purely naturalistic, materialistic worldviews.
• Neuroscience struggles to fully explain consciousness, leading some, even atheists, to question materialistic explanations.
• The hunger for meaning and purpose is presented as something potentially beyond mere "molecules in motion."
• A coherent worldview that posits a creator God and inherent purpose is seen as more plausible by some for explaining human consciousness and the drive for meaning.
• The inability to fully explain consciousness through Darwinian evolution suggests a potential gap in purely naturalistic accounts.

This part of the dialogue tackles the philosophical challenge of consciousness, questioning whether a purely materialist explanation can account for the human experience of meaning and purpose.

"So how is it that this mystery of consciousness which contains propositional thoughts, ideas and purposes, if consciousness can't be explained at Darwinian way, how can some characterization of molecules in motion accomplish that same end?"

The Psychological and Experiential Aspects of Meaning [53:11]

• There's a distinction between psychological experiences of meaning and objective, transcendent truth.
• A psychological explanation for feeling purpose is distinct from whether that purpose is "true" in a metaphysical sense.
• Meaning-making is a psychological process that helps people cope with suffering and trauma.
• The effectiveness of certain spiritual or philosophical frameworks (like karma or religious narratives) lies in their ability to facilitate this meaning-making process, regardless of their objective truth claims.
• The ultimate step to finding deep meaning is suggested to be a direct, often ineffable, experience of a transcendent reality or consciousness.

This exchange focuses on the practical, psychological benefits of meaning-making, distinguishing between the subjective feeling of purpose and its potential objective grounding, and highlighting the importance of direct experience.

"What I'm saying is that the link between that worldview and their feeling has nothing to do with the truth of the Okay, you see what I'm saying?"

The "Fall" and Explanations for Suffering [01:36:34]

• A Christian explanation for suffering, such as children getting cancer, involves the concept of "the Fall" – an ancient disobedience by humanity that "broke" the world.
• This disobedience is seen as the origin of evil, suffering, and a departure from God's original, perfect design.
• The extent of the impact of human rebellion on natural disasters and other forms of suffering is acknowledged as a complex issue.
• The idea that the world is "broken" implies a deviation from an ideal state, which then prompts moral assessments of suffering.
• The specific act of disobedience involved eating from the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil," which, when interpreted as experiential knowledge, raises questions about the nature of morality before the Fall.

This section delves into a specific theological explanation for suffering, attributing it to a foundational act of human disobedience and its subsequent cosmic effects on the world.

"And that is why all humans since then have the same proclivity towards evil. It's pretty much quantifiable."

The Practice of Spirituality and Experiencing the Divine [02:36:43]

• While direct religious or spiritual experiences are ineffable and not easily transmissible, the process of finding them can be described and practiced.
• Many religions have spiritual traditions (e.g., yoga in Hinduism, Gnosticism in Christianity) that involve practices like meditation, chanting, and specific postures to cultivate transcendent experiences.
• These practices aim to refine one's physiology and neurology to induce altered states of consciousness, potentially leading to ego dissolution and a connection with a greater reality or consciousness (Brahman/God).
• Psychedelics are mentioned as a tool that can activate existing neurological circuitry for such experiences, though they are seen as a starting point, not the endpoint.
• The common thread across these traditions is the emphasis on individual practice and the surrender of ego to connect with the divine.

This part of the discussion focuses on the practical, experiential aspects of spirituality, suggesting that while the ultimate experience is personal, the paths and practices leading to it can be explored and understood.

"But there are way way way further to go than what psychedelics can do. I I would say psychedelics take you to a helicopter to about 6,000 ft. You can go to 20,000 ft, 30,000 ft. Have experiences of Brahman."

Practical Steps for Finding Purpose and Well-being [03:04:50]

• Purpose is an internal feeling, not dictated by external validation; individuals must cultivate it themselves.
• Key steps include learning to feel emotions again (reducing alexithymia), dissolving ego identifications, and developing a narrative sense of identity.
• Making conscious choices, stretching one's capacities, and connecting with others are fundamental to finding meaning and purpose.
• Seeking a broader perspective by "zooming out" from immediate problems or identifying with a larger narrative (like a relationship with God or a grander purpose) is crucial.
• While scientific methods can address many aspects of well-being, a deeper sense of meaning may involve spiritual practices or a direct experience of the transcendent.

This section offers practical advice for combating feelings of being lost or purposeless, emphasizing internal work, conscious choices, and the importance of narrative construction and connection.

"So, first thing you have to do is learn how to feel again. Because if you look at most people who are mean whose life has no meaning, what they're actually doing is trying to create a life that is running away from bad feelings."